?對(duì)于去過日本、韓國(guó)和中國(guó)的外國(guó)人來說，你認(rèn)為上海比東京和首爾落后、相同還是更發(fā)達(dá)？
What do Vietnamese think about the news that China is helping Cambodia build a canal?
譯文簡(jiǎn)介
我在上海的經(jīng)驗(yàn)最多，在東京有一些經(jīng)驗(yàn)，在首爾幾乎沒有經(jīng)驗(yàn)（不過很快就會(huì)改變）。
正文翻譯
What do Vietnamese think about the news that China is helping Cambodia build a canal?
?對(duì)于去過日本、韓國(guó)和中國(guó)的外國(guó)人來說，你認(rèn)為上海比東京和首爾落后、相同還是更發(fā)達(dá)？
?對(duì)于去過日本、韓國(guó)和中國(guó)的外國(guó)人來說，你認(rèn)為上海比東京和首爾落后、相同還是更發(fā)達(dá)？
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Hi, Southamerican here, I haven't been to Seoul, but this year I spent ~3 months in Shanghai and ~2 weeks in Tokyo, so here go my 2cents on both cities.
In terms of technological implementation in daily life, I think they are similar in many areas, but I think SH has way better car infrastructure (in terms of highway connectivity, EVs and the generalized use of nav apps makes it a breeze to move around). Tokyo, on the other hand, has better public transport (metro+buses).
In terms of skyscrapers (?) SH has more no doubt. Housing infrastructure, I think Tokyo is more homogeneous and generally slightly better, although SH has generally bigger apartments.
As for how many foreigners are in each city, I'd say Tokyo no question. SH wasn't a foreign friendly city at all, but I genuinely think it's one of the best cities to live in if you speak mandarin.
嗨，我是南美人，我還沒去過首爾，但今年我在上海待了三個(gè)月，在東京待了兩周，所以我想談?wù)勎覍?duì)這兩個(gè)城市的看法。
就日常生活中的技術(shù)應(yīng)用而言，我認(rèn)為這兩個(gè)城市在很多方面都很相似，但我認(rèn)為上海的汽車基礎(chǔ)設(shè)施要好得多（就高速公路連接、電動(dòng)汽車和導(dǎo)航應(yīng)用程序的普遍使用而言，移動(dòng)起來輕而易舉）。另一方面，東京擁有更好的公共交通（地鐵+公交車）。
毫無疑問，上海的摩天大樓更多。在住房基礎(chǔ)設(shè)施方面，我認(rèn)為東京更為均質(zhì)，總體上略勝一籌，但上海的公寓一般更大。
至于每個(gè)城市有多少外國(guó)人，我會(huì)毫無疑問地選擇東京。上海完全不是一個(gè)對(duì)外國(guó)人友好的城市，但我真心認(rèn)為，如果你會(huì)說普通話，它是最適合居住的城市之一。
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Forget Shanghai not being a foreigner friendly city, China isn't a foreigner friendly country lol.
別說上海不是一個(gè)對(duì)外國(guó)人友好的城市，是中國(guó)不是一個(gè)外國(guó)人友好的國(guó)家哈哈。
then how come so many foreigners are saying Chinese are very helpful, friendly and hospitable?
那為什么這么多外國(guó)人都說中國(guó)人非常樂于助人、友好、好客呢？
Exactly what he said. I've been living in china for 6+ years, and Chinese people on the whole are very friendly, but dealing with anything government/state related is a huge pain in the ass for foreigners
正是他所說的。我在中國(guó)生活了 6 年多，中國(guó)人總體上非常友好，但對(duì)外國(guó)人來說，處理任何與政府/國(guó)家有關(guān)的事情都非常麻煩。
I have the most experience in Shanghai, some experience in Tokyo, and almost none in Seoul (although that will change soon).
Shanghai and Tokyo are both incredible cities. To echo another user’s sentiments, the issues I had in Shanghai didn’t stem from the city’s development itself but China’s overall policies (internet access, etc).
It’s hard to say which one is more developed than the other, as they prioritize different things. Shanghai has the easiest, safest and relatively least expensive metro system I’ve ever ridden. Everything can be accessed and paid for by phone (and has become slightly easier as a foreigner to access that system over the last year, thanks Alipay). Anything can be delivered at any time, lightning fast. It all feels very streamlined and efficient, and if you have the means you can live large in that city for relatively little. The roads are full of electric vehicles, they feel like the majority there.
我在上海的經(jīng)驗(yàn)最多，在東京有一些經(jīng)驗(yàn)，在首爾幾乎沒有經(jīng)驗(yàn)（不過很快就會(huì)改變）。
上海和東京都是令人難以置信的城市。我贊同另一位網(wǎng)友的觀點(diǎn)，我在上海遇到的問題并非源于城市發(fā)展本身，而是中國(guó)的整體政策（互聯(lián)網(wǎng)接入等）。
很難說哪一個(gè)比另一個(gè)更發(fā)達(dá)，因?yàn)樗鼈儍?yōu)先考慮的事情不同。上海擁有我乘坐過的最便捷、最安全、相對(duì)最便宜的地鐵系統(tǒng)。所有東西都可以通過手機(jī)訪問和支付（去年，作為外國(guó)人訪問該系統(tǒng)變得稍微容易了一些，感謝支付寶）。任何東西都可以隨時(shí)送達(dá)，速度快如閃電。這一切都讓人感覺非常精簡(jiǎn)高效，如果你有能力，你可以花相對(duì)較少的錢在這座城市里過上大城市的精致生活。道路上到處都是電動(dòng)車，感覺它們?cè)谀抢镎剂舜蠖鄶?shù)。
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To contrast, Tokyo has some of the greatest access to all things pop culture (and world culture in general) I’ve ever seen. It has incredible worldly cuisine and every single pocket of the city is filled with seemingly impeccable, intentional design. And you cannot beat Tokyo when it comes to public toilets! And the politeness and orderlyness when it comes to the trains is top notch.
然而，衛(wèi)生間的情況卻時(shí)好時(shí)壞--有時(shí)我發(fā)現(xiàn)只有蹲便器，沒有洗手液/廁紙。有時(shí)一個(gè)地方的公共衛(wèi)生間給人的感覺無與倫比（相信我，作為一個(gè)土生土長(zhǎng)的美國(guó)人，我知道糟糕的公共衛(wèi)生間是什么樣的，我們國(guó)內(nèi)的衛(wèi)生間一般都很糟糕）。雖然地鐵既方便又安全，但它絕對(duì)是一種 “推開別人才能上下車 ”的系統(tǒng)--但這不僅僅是上海，而是整個(gè)中國(guó)。
相比之下，東京是我見過的最容易接觸到流行文化（以及世界文化）的地方。這里有令人難以置信的世界美食，城市的每一個(gè)角落都充滿了看上去無可挑剔的用心設(shè)計(jì)。說到東京的公共廁所，你是無法超越的！乘坐電車時(shí)的禮貌和秩序也是一流的。
Both feel safer than any other city I’ve been to. Both are also incredibly different from what I’m used to when it comes to living space. In America, I grew up in a nice large house, and even living on my own as an adult my shitty apartments in LA were larger than the “nice” apartments I had in Shanghai. And I’ve heard in Tokyo it’s not much better. Living space just doesn’t seem to be a priority, or everyone is used to being pushed into the space of a postage stamp, which was definitely not what I was used to.
盡管如此，我還是驚訝地發(fā)現(xiàn)現(xiàn)金在那里無處不在。有些自動(dòng)售貨機(jī)甚至只能使用現(xiàn)金/硬幣。與上海相比，我感覺這是一種退步，在上海，我從來沒有拿出過一美元，只是用二維碼支付。這里也不像你想象的那樣對(duì)外國(guó)人友好。在中國(guó)，我去的每家電影院都有英文字幕，即使是中國(guó)國(guó)產(chǎn)電影。東京的情況就不一樣了，并不是說我責(zé)怪他們沒有給電影配英文字幕。如果說有什么不同的話，那就是中國(guó)的額外包容。
這兩個(gè)城市都比我去過的其他城市更安全。在生活空間方面，兩座城市也都與我所習(xí)慣的生活方式大相徑庭。在美國(guó)，我在漂亮的大房子里長(zhǎng)大，即使成年后獨(dú)自生活，我在洛杉磯的破公寓也比我在上海的 “好 ”公寓更大。我聽說東京的情況也好不了多少。生活空間似乎并不重要，或者說每個(gè)人都習(xí)慣了被擠在郵票一樣的空間里，這絕對(duì)不是我所習(xí)慣的。
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Oh yeah, as for foreigners, I saw way more in Tokyo no question. The Chinese people I spoke to told me pre-Covid Shanghai had way more foreigners than they do now, and that number has apparently come way down even after they re-opened the borders. I was in both cities late last year so that’s the time frx I’m operating from.
因此，與其他地方一樣，這兩個(gè)城市各有利弊。與中國(guó)其他城市相比，上海無疑給人與外部世界聯(lián)系更緊密的感覺，但與東京相比，僅從互聯(lián)網(wǎng)方面來看，上海仍給人一種孤島的感覺。我期待著有一天能再次造訪這兩個(gè)城市。
對(duì)了，至于外國(guó)人，毫無疑問，我在東京看到的要多得多。與我交談過的中國(guó)人告訴我，疫情之前，上海的外國(guó)人比現(xiàn)在多得多，即使在重新開放邊境之后，這個(gè)數(shù)字也明顯下降了。我去年年底去過這兩個(gè)城市，所以我是在那個(gè)時(shí)間段去的。
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When it comes to metro costs, Shanghai has the same as Beijing. I don't live in Shanghai but I know years ago the cost of metro in Beijing is only 2 yuan. But I can't just ignore the cost, as it does cost. In Tianjin it is way more cheap(I don't think any foreigners will come to Tianjin except for those international students)
說到地鐵費(fèi)用，上海和北京是一樣的。我不住在上海，但我知道多年前北京的地鐵費(fèi)用只有 2 元。但我不能忽視這個(gè)費(fèi)用，因?yàn)樗_實(shí)也是費(fèi)用。在天津，地鐵費(fèi)用要便宜得多（我認(rèn)為除了留學(xué)生，沒有外國(guó)人會(huì)來天津）。
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Metro in my city in Canada costs the equivalent of almost 20 RMB for a ticket! And we are still having a reliability, low ridership and funding crisis for our public transit! I've always said that we should have hired Chinese engineers and workers to build out our LRT. The companies we did hire have taken double or triple the estimated time and double or triple the estimated costs...and still many issues with the new LRT lines.
在加拿大，我所在城市的地鐵票價(jià)相當(dāng)于近 20 元人民幣！而我們的公共交通仍然面臨著可靠性、低乘客率和資金危機(jī)！我一直說，我們應(yīng)該聘請(qǐng)中國(guó)工程師和工人來建造輕軌。我們聘請(qǐng)的公司所花費(fèi)的時(shí)間是預(yù)計(jì)時(shí)間的兩倍或三倍，成本是預(yù)計(jì)成本的兩倍或三倍......但新輕軌線路仍然存在許多問題。
These are great sentiments and I love both cities (like I would guess you do). I found taxis in Shanghai to be smoky and prone to price gouging, which I never encountered in Tokyo. Didi was awesome though in China though.
這些都是很好的感想，我喜歡這兩個(gè)城市（我猜你也一樣）。我發(fā)現(xiàn)上海的出租車會(huì)冒黑煙，而且很容易宰客，這是我在東京從未遇到過的。不過滴滴在中國(guó)很不錯(cuò)。
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You’re right, I forgot every once in a while I would get a smokey taxi. But DiDi indeed worked very well. And I loved being able to rent an Alipay bike wherever I was, it made getting to the metro a breeze
你說得沒錯(cuò)，我忘了說偶爾會(huì)有一輛冒黑煙的出租車。但滴滴確實(shí)很好用。我很喜歡在任何地方都能租到一輛支付寶自行車，這讓去地鐵站變得輕而易舉
I share almost the same sentiments you listed (especially Japan vs China toilets ). Wish I could upvote you twice.
我與你列出的觀點(diǎn)幾乎相同（尤其是日本與中國(guó)的廁所）。希望我能給你點(diǎn)兩次贊。
Shanghai is a very advanced city, super cool, it is different from Tokyo, has many more sky scrapers, used to have wayyy more foreigners. But I do not know after covid. Shanghai is easily the most western of the Chinese cities. It is a very rich city
上海是一個(gè)非常先進(jìn)的城市，超級(jí)酷，它與東京不同，有更多的高樓大廈，以前有更多的外國(guó)人。但我不知道在covid之后。上海是中國(guó)最西方化的城市。這是一個(gè)非常富有的城市
More developed than Seoul.
比首爾發(fā)達(dá)多了。
Yes, But old stuf in Seoul is more maintained then Shanghai
是的，但是首爾的老東西比上海維護(hù)得更好
Nailed it. Things look nice and sparkly here, but the maintenance is absolutely atrocious.
說對(duì)了。這里的東西看起來漂亮又閃亮，但維護(hù)工作絕對(duì)糟糕透頂。
I’ve lived in Tokyo and Shanghai and spent a week in Seoul before Covid.
It’s a tricky one to answer as it really depends on how you view things.
As an expat in both I’d say Tokyo is more fun and interesting and you’re never far away from a stop on the metro with something interesting right next to it. Shanghai metro is possibly better but Shanghai feels sterile and there isn’t much reason to go to most places. The internet situation holds Shanghai back a lot and makes it difficult for foreigners to access information. Shanghai is maybe more convenient with paying by phone. Pop culture and people it’s Tokyo no doubt. Chinese aren’t the most open to western ideas. Only thing I think Seoul beats Tokyo and Shanghai on is nightlife? (Some may still prefer Tokyo)
I’d probably say Shanghai is more advanced … the internet situation and the poor nightlife options makes it hard to immerse yourself and fall in love with it.
我曾在東京和上海生活過，在covid之前還在首爾待過一周。
這是一個(gè)很難回答的問題，因?yàn)檫@真的取決于你如何看待事物。
作為在這兩個(gè)城市生活過的外籍人士，我認(rèn)為東京更有趣、更好玩，你永遠(yuǎn)不會(huì)離地鐵站太遠(yuǎn)，地鐵站旁邊就有有趣的東西。上海的地鐵可能更好一些，但上海給人的感覺是死氣沉沉的，大多數(shù)地方都沒有什么值得去的理由。上海的互聯(lián)網(wǎng)狀況嚴(yán)重落后，外國(guó)人很難獲取信息。上海的手機(jī)支付可能更方便。毫無疑問，在流行文化和人士上東京更勝一籌。中國(guó)人并不是最容易接受西方觀念的。我認(rèn)為首爾唯一勝過東京和上海的是夜生活。（有些人可能還是更喜歡東京）
我可能會(huì)說上海更先進(jìn)......網(wǎng)絡(luò)狀況和夜生活選擇較少，很難讓人沉浸其中并愛上它。
What nightlife you looking for? Party specific? Or walking around eating around which then I cannot agree that Tokyo is better than Shanghai. Tokyo store closes earlier and only combini stays open. People disappear more quickly unless you are in Shinjuku to do party.
你在尋找什么樣的夜生活？派對(duì)？還是逛吃逛吃，那我就不能同意東京比上海好的說法了。東京的商店關(guān)門更早，只有 combini 還在營(yíng)業(yè)。除非你去新宿參加派對(duì)，否則街上的人很快就消失了。
Just all the bars have more energy in Shibuya / Roppongi / Shinjuku etc than anywhere in Shanghai
澀谷/六本木/新宿等地的酒吧比上海任何地方都更有活力
Well the system in that particularly area for bar hopping and partying is better. Chinese party usually is not as good. I agree with that.
嗯，那個(gè)特別適合酒吧和聚會(huì)的區(qū)域更系統(tǒng)和完善。中國(guó)的派對(duì)通常沒有那么好。我同意這一點(diǎn)。
You got to be smoking something. Shanghai? Backward? In your list of cities it is the most developed. Lived there for two years.
你一定是在抽嗨了。上海？落后？在你列舉的城市中，它是最發(fā)達(dá)的。我在那里住了兩年。
yeah I think just a few areas of seoul are actually rich, i think quite a lot of the population are pretty poor and a pretty darn large wealth divide
是的，我認(rèn)為首爾只有少數(shù)地區(qū)比較富裕，我認(rèn)為很多人都很窮，貧富差距非常大。
Shanghai, where I live, is comfortable, modern, quiet and very convenient. It feels thoroughly modern, especially due to the infrastructure, which is constantly being upxed and expanded.
Tokyo to me feels nicer when I am there, cleaner but also older. There are more traditions there that are weird, outdated but just the way things are done because that's how they have been done for a long time. Examples being the lack of trash bins or the subway system with its many non-compatible lines. Tokyo has a lot more foreigners than Shanghai and is better equipped to cater to them. Foreigners do not matter in economic terms to businesses in Shanghai, so they don't cater to them.
Seoul is at times exciting and at times quaint but definitely has the grimier, grittier vibe that Tokyo and Shanghai don't have. In terms of nightlife both beat Shanghai hands down, in terms of quality of living I think Shanghai and Tokyo beat Seoul for different reasons.
Any of these cities beats any of the other cities if you speak the local language. If you just speak english you might want to get onto starting to learn one language pronto or you will be missing out on so many things that you won't even be aware of.
我居住的上海舒適、現(xiàn)代、安靜，而且非常方便。它給人的感覺非?，F(xiàn)代化，尤其是基礎(chǔ)設(shè)施不斷更新和擴(kuò)建。
東京給我的感覺更好，更干凈，但也更古老。那里有更多怪異、過時(shí)的傳統(tǒng)，但這只是做事的方式，因?yàn)殚L(zhǎng)期以來就是這么做的。例如，沒有垃圾桶或地鐵系統(tǒng)有許多不兼容的線路。東京的外國(guó)人比上海多得多，也更有條件滿足他們的需求。在上海，外國(guó)人在經(jīng)濟(jì)上對(duì)企業(yè)并不重要，所以他們不會(huì)去迎合他們。
首爾時(shí)而令人興奮，時(shí)而古色古香，但絕對(duì)具有東京和上海所沒有的陰暗、邋遢的氛圍。就夜生活而言，兩座城市都勝過上海，但就生活質(zhì)量而言，我認(rèn)為上海和東京勝過首爾的原因各有不同。
如果你會(huì)說當(dāng)?shù)卣Z言，這些城市中的任何一個(gè)都能勝過其他城市。如果你只會(huì)說英語，你可能需要盡快開始學(xué)習(xí)一門語言，否則你將會(huì)錯(cuò)過很多你根本不會(huì)注意到的東西。
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Shanghai is definitely more developed than Seoul and Tokyo.
Foreigner as in not Asian looking. I think Tokyo has more. Foreigners as in anyone (including Asians) with a foreign passport I think Shanghai has more.
上海絕對(duì)比首爾和東京發(fā)達(dá)。
如果“外國(guó)人”是指看起來不像亞洲人。我認(rèn)為東京更多。如果“外國(guó)人”是指持有外國(guó)護(hù)照的人（包括亞洲人），我認(rèn)為上海的外國(guó)人更多。
My intuition tells me this is true.
China attracts many foreigners from the global south nowadays i believe.
Would be interesting if someone could provide the stats..
我的直覺告訴我這是真的。
我相信，如今中國(guó)吸引了許多來自全球南方的外國(guó)人。
如果有人能提供統(tǒng)計(jì)數(shù)據(jù)，那將會(huì)很有趣...
Shanghai is more developed than both cities. Seoul has some very developed areas but it's small in comparison to the other two, and while Tokyo is technically bigger than Shanghai in terms of its city limit/population, it is still stuck in the 2000s. Fax machines and all.
上海比這兩個(gè)城市都要發(fā)達(dá)。首爾有一些非常發(fā)達(dá)的地區(qū)，但與其他兩個(gè)城市相比，它的規(guī)模還很小。雖然從城市范圍/人口來看，東京在技術(shù)上比上海大，但它仍然停留在 2000 年代。還在使用傳真機(jī)什么的
All three are absolutely fully developed global cities by almost every metric you cite. There may be varying proportions of foreigners in each, but not my orders or magnitude. Overall, like most East Asian cities, they are mostly homogeneous compared to western cities like London, NYC and Paris, that have huge international immigrant populations. That being said each has a healthy expat community that is mostly composed of a mixture of business people and English teachers. Seoul also has the U.S. military presence, that is completely absent in China(obviously) and located elsewhere(mostly the island of Okinawa) in Japan.
從你列舉的幾乎所有指標(biāo)來看，這三個(gè)城市在全球范圍內(nèi)都絕對(duì)是發(fā)達(dá)的城市。每座城市中外國(guó)人的比例可能有所不同，但數(shù)量級(jí)差別不會(huì)太大?？傮w而言，與倫敦、紐約和巴黎等擁有大量國(guó)際移民人口的西方城市相比，這三個(gè)城市與大多數(shù)東亞城市一樣，大多是同質(zhì)化的。盡管如此，每個(gè)城市都有一個(gè)健康的外籍人士社區(qū)，主要由商務(wù)人士和英語教師混合組成。首爾還擁有美國(guó)的軍事存在，這在中國(guó)（顯然）和日本其他地方（主要是沖繩島）是完全沒有的。